Comments for Twelve Steps to New Financial Structure - Money of the Natural Economic Order at http://atlanticfreepress.com , comment 1 to 5 out of 5 comments http://atlanticfreepress.com Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:13:19 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/5435-twelve-steps-to-new-financial-structure-money-of-the-natural-economic-order.html#comment-6614 Politicians can discuss proposals X,Y,Z and choose one. This is quite useless. Natural selection is better. Markets will decide. Politicians may discuss the use of steam engins versus combustion engines. If they choose steam engines, combustion engines will still be used because they are far more efficient. There is a profit motive for using combustion engines. Societies implementing combustion engines will be far more wealthy. So in the end, everybody will be forced to use combustion engines. So, I am not here to discuss proposals. The natural economic order seems inevitable to me. What I do, does not make much difference in the end result. Spreading the knowlegde will only make it happen somewhat sooner. - Bart Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:13:19 +0100 http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/5435-twelve-steps-to-new-financial-structure-money-of-the-natural-economic-order.html#comment-6611 I have read your argument. I do not want to go into political debate. I am just an engineer. Solving problems is my day to day job. Solutions must be realistic and implementable. I know about the Wörgl system for 15 years now, and I never thought this will work worldwide because of all you wrote. The only way it can work, is that it must be stronger than the structure that is imposed upon us. But then something struck me a just few weeks ago. Wörgl - Europe - Ancient Egypt: they were possible all examples of the "Great Solution" (the plan of God, if you believe in God). Western Europe came out on top after the middle ages. Why did they? Nobody knows the definite answer. But I think I know this now. The story I wrote, sounds reasonable to say the least, and because there is no other explanation that is compelling like this one, I will stick with it. Think again. Maybe this is the secret success formula. Natural economies must be far stronger than unnatural economies (the kind we live in today). When they come into existence, they will destroy the old system. There must be at least one power hungry leader who wants to try this out. There must be at least one country intested in the well being of its citizens. The crash of the financial system will lead to despair. This will be tried. If this is true, the only thing you have to do is make it public. Common sense thinking and markets will do the problem solving. - Bart Sun, 19 Oct 2008 07:36:06 +0100 http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/5435-twelve-steps-to-new-financial-structure-money-of-the-natural-economic-order.html#comment-6608 Hello. Upon your request by email, I re-read your entire article. Clearly much thought and hard work has gone into it. Thank you for your efforts. Let's just concede that yours is a great alternative proposal to the existing system, Proposal A. I think there are in existence, great proposals at least up to Proposal Z. Each proponent insists that their proposal is provably better than the existing system in some very erudite way. That's just great. More great ideas to choose from. Let's further assume that yours is the greatest invention. Or that after a major battle in some economists gathering at Harvard, one proposal unanimously comes out on top. Yours. Proposal A is now the best alternative to the existing system, and all economists, experts, and even some key government officials agree. Even perhaps the President of the United States. I start my humble argument from that point. This is what is implicit in my first comment above, to which you asked me to re-read your missive as you suggested I had not understood your great idea, and to which, having read your excellent article, I would now request that you may also kindly re-read my initial comment. You also did not get it at all. Nothing further needs to be added to it to clarify matters, but permit me to still try one more time. Since your wonderful Proposal A relies on platitudes and does not show how, and with what new external or internal powers of enforcement, can the entrenched power of the moneychangers which sustains the existing system, be countered, it will remain a good idea, on paper. Just like the Good Book, and all Good Books. Meaning, your "hey this is the greatest idea since slice-bread, a natural idea, let's use it", is qualitatively no different than "Hey, I am God and I Command you: Thou Shall Not Kill as that is the natural order for mankind so they may live in natural harmony, and furthermore, Thou Shall Not covet their neighbors' cow and wife, Thou Shall Not charge interest, Thou Shall Not screw your fellow man ... " which are even greater ideas with even an absolute force backing it, and these are of such commonsensical obviousness that they are understandable by all and sundry without even needing any elaborate exposition (certainly it was all supposedly printed on a single stone tablet taking much less space than your erudite article). And so what of it? Israel today decimates the Palestinians with impunity and the world watches silently. What happened to the good idea from the good god himself? At the risk of stating the obvious, that is because the existent power-structures in the world support Israel in its conquest of Palestine - and with a devilish cleverness of baby-step incremental fait accompli that is hardly explainable fully even in a long missive like "The Endless Trail of Red Herrings". Even their own Israeli historians, never mind their great founding fathers, gloat of, or at least narrate of, their state's and peoples' crimes - can anyone reverse that genocide which goes on even as I write this? I hope you are able to understand my humble critique - good ideas are aplenty. And you have yourself convincingly demonstrated that the monopoly power to coin money legally, awarded to the private central bank, caused the experiment in Worgl to be abandoned by the Central Bank when it exercised its legal authority to blunt it: [b]"At this point, the central bank panicked, and decided to assert its monopoly rights by banning complimentary currencies. The people unsuccessfully sued the bank, and later lost in the Austrian Supreme Court. It then became a criminal offense to issue 'emergency currency'."[/b] The same carte blanche monopoly powers were awarded to the private central bank not only in the United States, but every central bank in the world enjoys that legal protection - today! This is not news to anyone surely. These legal entities can choose to enforce that legal right whenever threatened. And as the following article indicates, there are 65 alternate local/regional currencies in Germany alongside the Euro, and these are only allowed to exist because the European monetary authorities think these fringe elements are not any threat to their main currency Euro: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2802861/Germans-get-by-without-the-euro.html And in the 1996 video, The Money Masters, at around 3:13:00, you can also see another success story of local currency, in Guernsey, a small principality off the coast of France: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936 And the aforecited video further quotes economist Milton Friedman, in its conclusion after a long and very informative historical analysis, all the good platitudinous stuff, on commonsensically reclaiming back the power awarded to the Federal Reserve System. But as the video also narrates: these central banks are now deeply entrenched in the world's power structures, with a history of at least 300 years of legal legitimacy and institutionalized experience. These are now global institutions protected by entrenched laws in every nation, protected by paid politicians and media. They are owned by the richest families in the world which control them from their central headquarters – the Bank of International Settlements (bis.org) through an opaquely interlocking and complex ownership structure that no one can penetrate through. So find me a "Jesus" courageous enough to alter that reality, who will cleanse the lawmaking bodies of the world of the presence of the moneychangers' influence, and bring forth new legislation which will effectively repeal those laws which originally gave power to coin money out of thin air to the moneychangers. Unless a proposal for monetary reform addresses these issues of the grotesque reality of immeasurably entrenched global power, as an integral part of their implementation architecture, it's like I read on some website once (probably globalsecurity.org): [b]"dreams without funding [power] are hallucinations". [/b] I keep repeating, that there is really no shortage of solutions. Julius Caesar knew it, Jefferson, Lincoln, Jackson, and JFK knew it. You know it. G. Edward Griffin Knows it. Norman Dodd knew it when he made a proposal to the Morgan Bank to return to sound banking practice in the aftermath of the Great Depression of 1930, WebOfDebt knows it, MoneyAsDebt knows it, MoneyMasters know it, monetary.org and mises.org both know it. Richard Cook seems to know it too. Even Alex Jones knows it. Certainly Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich too. And I say - very good. Hallelujah. Now go fund a political action group, an economics think-tank, some newspaper editorialists in the New York Times and the Washington Post, and at least (sizeof(Congress)/2) 1 Congresspersons' election campaigns who would vote Yes on the monetary reform Bill, and bring to power an occupant in the White House willing to sign it even at the risk of assassination with a Vice President and a House Speaker who will not rescind it if the abhorrence comes to pass, if you want to stop hallucinating. This is how the banksters did it - and all the time their well meaning antagonists, and at least since 1913, have only been spouting platitudes. Nothing new is being said today, that has not been stated tens of times before. And I can now verify this because I have spent considerable time researching this topic. But this is hardly news to anyone who can write such an outstanding proposal as the one in this article. The game is lost in the current round my friends. And I pray that I am entirely wrong, that indeed, the sheer think-system invented by the “Music Man”, and the platitudes of the prophets of antiquity, do win out in the real world at some point - not today though. Only access to, and harnessing of, real power, to minimally construct the balance of power, if not overwhelming victor's power, and fighting political power with political power, military power with military power, can alter any existent reality that is counter to the interests of those presently wielding the power. Sorry to be stating a blatant truism to make the obvious point. Hope this helps clarify matters and helps focus or redirect attention of those with the wherewithal and genuine stamina to endure the course, to how to politically instrument monetary reform. Of course this is intimately tied to what reforms, because that determines the level of inertia and opposition, but nevertheless, without political power (and access to wealth to get that power), it is meaningless to spend further time in researching what reforms to make. There are plenty of known solutions, many are even proven solutions which need no further study to pick from as the first pass reform. Fine tuning can occur over time if suitable legislation is drafted. [b]Who will bell the cat?[/b] [b]How will the cat be belled?[/b] We already have several shiny new and antique bells to choose from. It's pointless crafting any more new bells. That's all your proposal is, a new, or even an old, bell. Get to the next stage please. Thank you. Zahir Ebrahim Project Humanbeingsfirst.org http://humanbeingsfirst.org - Project Humanbeingsfirst.org Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:47:22 +0100 http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/5435-twelve-steps-to-new-financial-structure-money-of-the-natural-economic-order.html#comment-6596 I know the seemingly hopeless position. If you read carefully, you will see that maybe spreading the knowledge is enough. If a natural economy is working far better, in the way that is pointed out, and this is tested in history (see Wörgl, Ancient Egypt, Europe in the middle ages) it becomes clear that societies implementing natural economy will be far more powerful. If this is true, it probably is inevitable. Interest driven economies do not stand a chance against the natural economic order. Even if we did not see it now, it will be discovered by chance or thought in the near future. That is the message. - Bart Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:52:27 +0100 http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/5435-twelve-steps-to-new-financial-structure-money-of-the-natural-economic-order.html#comment-6593 Hi - your recommendation of this video is right on! Project Humanbeingsfirst also highly recommends this video in its report: The Enduring Capitalist Conspiracy For World Government http://humanbeingsfirst.blogspot.com/2008/09/capitalist-conspiracy-world-government.html However, please note the last few passages, excerpted below. It is not meant to discourage or disparage excellent ideas, but only to point out that it is not the lack of solution-spaces that plague us. We have known the solution since Julius Ceaser banished the moneychangers and started issuing his own coin. That was even before Christ threw them out of the Temple. If only good ideas could create practicable solutions, then the 3000 years old Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule might have taken care of all matters, and there'd have been heaven on earth. I hope the conscientious author of this article can suggest how might one proceed, given that two past presidents of the United States who tried to go against these power-brokers were immediately assassinated. The ominious speech of JFK which even today portends the awesome power wielded by the moneychangers can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlghYpDx0f4 Norman Dodd disclosed to G. Edward Griffin in an interview in 1982, the following statement that was made to him by a Morgan bank official in 1929 in the aftermath of the Great Crash and Depression: [b]"Norm what you're saying is we should return to sound banking ... We will never see sound banking in the United States again." [/b] This interview with the late Norman Dodd can be watched here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC21jB9EE The fact that this secretive power which [b]"will never see sound banking in the United States again"[/b] is the same today as when it boasted of its intent to Norman Dodd almost 80 years ago, and is quite alive and even more powerful than it ever before, was just witnessed in the passage of the not-so-secretive trillion dollar bailout Bill by Congress - and its analysis can be read here: http://humanbeingsfirst.blogspot.com/2008/09/no-exits-on-this-super-highway.html Any great ideas and proposals to fix the monetary system which do not take into account the reality of this entrenched power of the private banksters, and how to effectively counter it, is merely just that, good ideas on paper. Even great for phd thesis rehash, but of little practical use. And so long as these ideas stay there, on paper, the secretive power brokers, who, right before our very eyes just put the American nation in debt for another trillion dollars, has no qualms with them. And if you read the following press release, you will note that this new bailout debt is merely a down payment towards putting the entire world in similar straightjacket - Paulson is recommending all governments do similar bailouts with their own central banks: http://pressreleases-humanbeingsfirst.blogspot.com/2008/10/pr-resp-wmr-fema-martiallaw-oct092008.html Begin excerpt [b]Money is an even bigger existential necessity today in the producer-consumer global paradigm than it ever was in the past, even though the imperial coin is as old as mankind! And yet one has to come by its accurate understanding only as a detective assembling a jigsaw puzzle from empirical analysis. And even then, sometimes, the analysis suffers from one's philosophies which almost act like “religion”. Thus it is unsurprising that some propose platitudes as solutions, forgetting that the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule are at least 3000 years old but have made little impact on the real world of avarice and plunder. These include proposals for radical transformations as if revolutions are just around the corner. Some propose solutions which merely favor the private central-bankers themselves, knowingly or unwittingly is immaterial. Many of these are almost always cosmetic bandaids. These also include partial solutions that leave the core problems intact. “Religion” is most apparent in these arguments. An example of this is the gold standard, or the gold-equivalence standard as the now defunct Bretton-Woods. In the ability to tell the nuanced differences therein, among BS, idealism, and usefulness at different application hierarchies, lies the key that can practicably and immediately unlock the world from the debt shackles of the perpetual capitalist conspiracy for world government. But as those given to even a modicum of realism well understand, rectification of injustices is only possible either with the mighty hand of the victor's justice, or under the astute gamesmanship of balance of power. In this case, political power to affect legal solutions at all levels. Never on its own, regardless of the soundness of the platitudes or the solutions. To build such a balance of power today that might be effective, does not seem to be in the capability arsenal of those proposing monetary reform solutions. A largely powerless peoples who cannot even fund one single economics think-tank of national consequence, and one single financial political action group of influence, never mind mustering the kind of lobbying-power before which powerful Congress persons and local law-makers, mayors, state governors, attorney generals, and newspaper editorialists might bow their head. Realistically, I see no impact by monetary reformers at the national or international level. For it is but a truism that those who control purse strings, control nations' destinies – the real golden rule on earth, as old as mankind! To confiscate their purse-strings – as easy as a stroke of pen – is a revolutionary act for which there is no “Jesus” today to cleanse the Congress of the moneychangers. The Wall Street bailout with the new crown of thorns, and which the US Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson is now brazenly attempting to extend to crucify all of mankind upon the new cross of a global monetary system, is proof-sufficient. [/b] End Excerpt. I hope that this critique will be taken in a positive light - and not as disparagement of conscionable peoples real hard work and good ideas. If hard work and the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur'an or the Vedas or Commonsense) alone was sufficient, many a poverty-striken laborers around the world would be living quite comfortable lives. Zahir Ebrahim Project Humanbeingsfirst.org http://humanbeingsfirst.org - Project Humanbeingsfirst.org Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:00:04 +0100